Good morning. Some information and a question for you.?

Good morning. Some information and a question for you.?

One of the biggest debates the we continually have here on this forum is National Health Care. I'-m finding more and more information with regards to other countries who have this and how it'-s failing.Here are some excerpts and a link:Who'-s Really '-Sicko'-In Canada, dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week. Humans can wait two to three years"-I haven'-t seen '-Sicko,'- "- says Avril Allen about the new Michael Moore documentary, which advocates socialized medicine for the United States. The film, which has been widely viewed on the Internet, and which will officially open in the U.S. and Canada on Friday, has been getting rave reviews. But Ms. Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She'-s just too busy preparing to file suit against Ontario'-s provincial government about its health-care system next month.Her client, Lindsay McCreith, would have had to wait for four months just to get an MRI, and then months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. Instead, frustrated and ill, the retired auto-body shop owner traveled to Buffalo, N.Y., for a lifesaving surgery. Now he'-s suing for the right to opt out of Canada'-s government-run health care, which he considers dangerous. Ms. Allen figures the lawsuit has a fighting chance: In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that "-access to wait lists is not access to health care,"- striking down key Quebec laws that prohibited private medicine and private health insurance.In the U.S., 83 House Democrats voted for a bill in 1993 calling for single-payer health care. That idea collapsed with HillaryCare and since then has existed on the fringes of the debate--winning praise from academics and pressure groups, but remaining largely out of the political discussion. Mr. Moore'-s documentary intends to change that, exposing millions to his argument that American health care is sick and socialized medicine is the cure.It'-s not simply that Mr. Moore is wrong. His grand tour of public health care systems misses the big story: While he prescribes socialism, market-oriented reforms are percolating in cities from Stockholm to Saskatoon. Mr. Moore goes to London, Ontario, where he notes that not a single patient has waited in the hospital emergency room more than 45 minutes. "-It'-s a fabulous system,"- a woman explains. In Britain, he tours a hospital where patients marvel at their free care. A patient'-s husband explains: "-It'-s not America."- Humorously, Mr. Moore finds a cashier dispensing money to patients (for transportation). In France, a doctor explains the success of the health-care system with the old Marxist axiom: "-You pay according to your means, and you receive according to your needs."- It'-s compelling material--I know because, born and raised in Canada, I used to believe in government-run health care. Then I was mugged by reality.Consider, for instance, Mr. Moore'-s claim that ERs don'-t overcrowd in Canada. A Canadian government study recently found that only about half of patients are treated in a timely manner, as defined by local medical and hospital associations. "-The research merely confirms anecdotal reports of interminable waits,"- reported a national newspaper. While people in rural areas seem to fare better, Toronto patients receive care in four hours on average- one in 10 patients waits more than a dozen hours.This problem hit close to home last year: A relative, living in Winnipeg, nearly died of a strangulated bowel while lying on a stretcher for five hours, writhing in pain. To get the needed ultrasound, he was sent by ambulance to another hospital.In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his documentary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over. France'-s system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.http://socglory.blogspot.com/Seriously, folks... Is THIS what we want for our country? A system that is failing elsewhere?There have to be other alternatives, don'-t you think?

Given2Fl

The problem is that the status quo is not working. Personally, I've seen my insurance premium and co-pays go up every year, while the service level has dropped. Like or dislike Moore's position regarding socialized healthcare, he does have a MAJOR point here that the system is broken and may be beyond repair. The question is what do we do to fix it. I was talking to a Dr. about the movie the other day and he told me that one of the major reasons insurance costs continue to rise is that there are 45 million uninsured who's medical costs must be absorbed by those of us with insurance. Every bill that a hospital or Dr.'s office cannot collect on forces them to raise prices to offset the loss. Another area that needs to be looked at is malpractice suits. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there are an aweful lot of predatory law firms out there who make a living off of suing doctors and hostpitals, while their clients are used as pawns. This drives the cost of malpractice insurance up and puts good doctors out of business. I'm a liberal, but I have to say that I agree with the concept of Tort reform to some degree.Another issues is the fact that HMO's and Managed Care companies force doctors to see MORE patients than they should and cut corners. Since they negotiate service costs with the providers... providers must see more traffic to pay bills. This is not a desireable scenario when it comes to working with public health.I don't know if full socialized medicine is the answer... maybe there should be a system that allows people to opt out for private if they wish. I still feel that there are a few industries in this country that should not be 'for profit'. And healthcare is one of them.

flushles

I'll agree there have to be other alternatives.The foreign HCs you listed - why aren't they taking steps to correct these problems? If they are, why won't it work?The US HC - what is the answer to annual price hikes that put affordable HC out of reach annually and more people relying on free HC due to not being able to afford HC insurance? Would caps work? Would task forces assigned to study these problem have its recommendations picked apart by self serving groups?And so on. Point being that you don't really see any action being done in either case, and the status quo is to let things continue unabated.

Nunya

Good Mornin'! I'd love to give this one a Star later on. To allow more to see this. Keep it open as long as Possible. We'll help you get the message out. And yes! There is other choices. And it shouldn't come from the Gub'ment!Source(s):You know when you're question is Dead-on-Point. When you get these Trolls with their Thumbs down at every turn. It must be nice NOT having a life!

regerugged

In the US, the insurance industry and the health care industry are the most regulated. Regulations are costly and don't improve the delivery of services. The government should cut back on interference rather than take on more controls.Mr. Moore is a film maker. He knows how to sell seats in movie theaters. His left wing liberal loony positions have been debunked in the past. The fraud in his film will not get nearly as much press coverage as the film itself.

MullahMurtha

I agree...I think once liberal proponents realize it will take months to get treated and medicated for their Bush Derangement syndrome under a national health care plan they will change their minds on this.

dstr

Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind BotswanaFact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nationMyth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too ExpensiveFact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health careFact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefitsFact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save moneyMyth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed ServicesFact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the USFact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.Source(s):http://www.change.org/changes/change_pag…

Wonka

Ponder the following quotes and realize that some may not care and even perhaps oppose health care. I know you are expecting an answer that speaks to the nature of an ideal health care system. What I pose is a hyperbole, "what if they don't care?"I do think we need to build a shelter from the anticipated storm. I would like to see penalties exacted from those poisoning our population. Monetary coupled with CTC estimates of impact.BTW don't forget that any direction will have to deal with the AMA. The migration of physicians from one economic strata to a lower one will not be tolerated.Source(s):"If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels." -Prince Philip (Duke of Edinburgh, leader of The World Wildlife Fund" and father of Prince Charles)"I got the impression that instead of going out to shoot birds, I should go out and shoot the kids who shoot birds." -Paul Watson (founder of Greenpeace)."The world has cancer, and that cancer is man." -Merton Lambert, (former spokesman for the Rockefeller Foundation)."We, in the green movement, aspire to a cultural model in which killing a forest will be considered more contemptible and more criminal than the sale of 6-year-old children to Asian brothels." - Carl Amery (German Greens)."The human race could go extinct, and I for one, would not shed any tears." - Dave Foreman (founder of Earth First!)."A Total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal." -Ted Turner (media mogul and United Nations advocate).

Jon

You articulate the point very well. I live near the US/Canada border, and work with many Canadians. I have heard the stories of ridiculous backlogs and lack of treatment quality. I have also seen many of the wealthy Canadians that come to the American hospitals for treatment. They have the means to pay for the care themselves and are unwilling to risk problems dealing with the Canadian system.The movie of Moore's was built on the premise of socialized health care being superior. Anytime you set a premise like that you can take small incidental stories to make the case look good. However if it were to be looked at objectively, the premise would collapse. I wonder how much of the bad side of things Mr Moore had to ignore and cut out to paint his rosy picture.

PD

let's get real, you find just as many problems with our current healthcare. ie people having to wait years for an insurance company to approve a procedure. I have spent more than 12 hours in an ER before being seen here in the US. As far as universal healthcare, im not sure we can afford it. I want the budget balanced first, then we can talk about more spending.

nonenzedder

"a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over."I think you'll find this is because the cleaning and laundry has been outsourced to a private company..Ain't capitalism in healthcare wonderful?I can honestly say that although there will always be individual cases in the NHS - the NHS is by and large (and from my own personnal experiences of it) exceptional, and the only people who think it's not are right wingers desperate to make a buck, now more than any other time - after it has had massive investment.

grinslinger

I can't speak for France or some of the other countries that you mentioned. But I have first hand knowledge of the Canadian system. I live in Michigan, I have many relatives living in London, Hamilton, and St. Catherine's Ontario. One works at the University of Hamilton, which has a hospital. They all go to Detroit, or Buffalo for Health Care. This is a fact, and I asked them why not use their system and the main grievance is the time it takes to get in, or get tests done. People just don't want to wait on Health Care, even if it is discounted or free.Micheal Moore, is also from Michigan, and he knows these facts as well as anyone. He chooses not to tell the truth but to further his liberal ideals via his profession with scare tactics. Liberals are quick to say the Conservatives use scare tactics but fail to mention their own. ( Another is Global Warming).Our system is far from perfect and needs some serious attention. In order to fix problems you need to deal with facts. We don't need frivolous opinions and rhetoric, we need to role up our sleeves and fix our system, not throw it away and adopt another system that is already broken.

school1859

Are you suggesting that the health care system in this country is better than the countries who have a socialized plan?How long do you have to wait in the waiting room here? And don't forget that an ER visit isn't even an option for many Americans who have no Insurance. Where are the facts of other nations that the health care systems are working?No system is perfect, but this country could do much better.And I must say it is a shame how the elderly are affected in this country because of this crisis. Shame on those who put profit before human lives and suffering. And shame on those who think that it is just fine.

imfoxygirl

There are flaws in every system.Do you want to keep paying for those that have no insurance? ...because you do, you know.If you have no insurance you get no hip replacement. You don't need a hip replacement to save your life. It's elective surgery.I have relatives and friends in the UK. They say there are drawbacks....but they can't understand how the richest country in the world doesn't have coverage for everyone. They think it's amazing that a family could lose everything they own because of a health issue.Do you know that 2 million more Americans became uninsured last year? In just one year!!We used to have mainly Blue Cross and Blue Shield. It was sort of a one payer system. There were other insurance companies but mostly that company was used. Almost every working person got it, not only for themselves but for their whole family. The cost started going up and the Republicans decided to have HMO's. That was supposed to keep the cost down. Instead the costs have skyrocketed!! It's now privatized and for profit. We can see the huge mess it's made of our health care. Try to use it sometime when you have a chronic illness.We need to do something. A nation that is not healthy is never going to get ahead. It will go backwards.

alphabetsoup

I don't think universal health care has to represent moving to a 100% government sponsered program. Massachusetts, for example, has health insurance offered by the state to those who do not have employment based health insurance. It is optional, and, did not "replace" the system , so to speak, or, become a 100% state run program, not even close..

tribecabelle

The advantage that we have here in the US in instituting universal health care is that we have the examples of other health care systems and we can evaluate what doesn’t work well and what does.The European, Canadian, Japanese, etc. universal health care systems have been in effect for decades and we can analyze and Americanize the system to meet our needs and address the problems. It would involve some thinking but we can do it.The fact is that we have many problems here in our own health care system and we can’t leave them unaddressed.

tommybear45

oh to be a dog in Cananda!!!!! the Medical Mistake needs to be fixed, like the Mistake War, i can't wait to see Sicko, Michael Moore for President!!!!! (for telling the truth) nothing is perfect but it's sad state of affairs on my frontsSource(s):\o/

Overt

I'm beginning to think that some kind of universal health coverage is inevitable in the USA. The current system of medical insurance for profit is creating too many problems. I have experienced first hand an insurance company refusing to pay for covered health care. The unpaid bill ruined my credit. It took over a year and a law suit to make the company pay the bill.Rather than arguing over having or not having universal coverage, we should be looking at designing the perfect system by examining the flaws in the others.

scottdman2003

What is odd is that I've known many people from Canada and Britain and I've never heard a single one talk about how great their health care system is. On the contrary. They talk about how if you have heart disease and are a smoker, you are put at the bottom of the list. Or how if you have liver failure, and drink heavily, your put at the bottom of the list.Do we do that here in America? NOPE!I do agree with one thing. While insurance premiums have gone up, so has the cost of health care, as with everything. It's called inflation. The people that talk about their premiums going up and their quality of care going down need to either blame their employers or themselves for not shopping around a little better. I for one am with Blue Cross Blue Shield. I have family coverage that costs me around $140.00 a month and the quality of coverage is pretty dang good.For example, a little over a month ago I had a kidney stone drop, and man did it hurt.I hate emergency rooms, and being a guy, I have to be in really bad pain or squirting blood before I go to the hospital. This time I went though.I was immediately brought back, IV's started, the doctor came in within a half hour, started pain meds and ordered a CT scan. Found the stone, determined it was small enough to pass safely and sent me on my way. All of this took two and half hours. And I was okay by the end of the day, and much relieved that my guts weren't shredding, because that is what it felt like.After my insurance paid their part. My part, including copays, was around $250.00. That's including everything. And for those that want to know, the CT scan alone was $600.00. The total bill, had I not been covered would have been almost $4000.00 yet I only paid $250.00.Those that say they wait for hours in American ER's, I wonder, what did they go there for? If it was a broken bone, believe me, you WILL wait if they have heart attacks, car wreck injuries etc to deal with. It is call the triage system. If it isn't life threatening, you will wait unless they aren't busy.I've personally never known of anybody with a possible life threatening problem having to wait. My first wife had diabetes really bad, we went to the ER many times, and because of the nature of her disease, they ALWAYS attended to her very quickly.Even uninsured people if they go to the ER with a serious problem, they WILL be taken care of, PERIOD.

weezingeezer

Let's remember who moore is. He's not going to let little annoyances like facts get in the way of his holy calling.

gedger

I do understand your point. Paying for your own health care, as you should know, is also out of wack.Part of the problem is a lawyer like John Edwards raping the system so he can buy a 28,000 sq. ft. house.Another problem is a person coming off the street and going to the ER because they have poison ivy. I know they have been treated as such. And I know they didn't pay for it. They said so. They were wondering why I was only using calomine lotion. My poison ivy was much worse.Thats because MY health care isn't free.Source(s):Was in the hood working

Aunt

Why don't Democrats CARE about ANYTHING but votes? This is all another attempt to BUY votes from the poor and middle class!

rmagedon

I really believe the problem needs to be clearly defined before we spend a fortune to fix it, I mean if you cannot clearly articulate what the problem is, how can you fix anything.To all of the idiots, we have universal healthcare in AMerica, it is available to all people regardless of citizenship, it is available to all people regardless of insurance coverage and ability to pay. To say we do not have universal healthcare in America is just a lie. To say that if you cannot pay that you cannot get care is a LIE.Hospitals and medical care givers budget on average 12% of their operating costs to indigent care. 12% is more than the number of people who do not have healthcare insurance so I am having a problem seeing insurance coverage as the problem.So if I may I would like to propose what the problem really is, and it is multi-faceted so excuse the rambling.Health care in AMerica is expensive, we have the best facilities and the best care givers in the world. For those that want to throw up single issues statistics to argue this point you are either stupid or naive.Most AMericans pay their way and to avoid having to pay doctors and others we instead opt for insurance believing that this is the lesser of the costs. In most instances that is a false belief. The only time you need insurance is for catastrophic care, surgeries, life threatening accidents and illnesses and the like, really big dollar items. Try this, call your health insurance people and tell them you want to reduce your coverage to catastrophic care only and the will say NO.Currently the health insurers give more dollars to politicians than just about any other industry. Why is that? Insurers want to be able to control regulation and write the laws that effect their profits, and they do that by buying Congress. Eliminate this connection and the cost of insurance will go down.Lawyers and in particular ambulance chasers increase the costs of insurance. Eliminate punitive damages in health care lawsuits, make the losers pay their own legal fees and this will lower the cost of insurance and care. But of course you do know who is in the top contributors to Congress, lawyers of course, because they want to control the regulation and write the laws that impact their ability to make more money.So far we are in the early part of my points, but so far we have insurers buying Congress and we have lawyers buying Congress, for the blind, there is a common thread here in the health insurance and care costs............ Congress.So I am going to stop now, as I believe it is abundantly clear that Congress is a major contributor to the cost of health care and insurance and any fool who wants Congress involved in fixing the problem is blind, ignorant and stupid.Yes, we need to do something about the cost of insurance. Insurance companies make huge profits, I have invested in those companies for years, better than oil and high tech ever were. This is not bad, but competition is reduced due to congress and therefore the insurers write the rules and can do basically whatever they please, as long as they control congress.My only thoughts on how to fix this is to remove Congress from the health care picture, let the free market move the costs, let the consumer move the costs of insurance.I will finish with a socialist healthcare story. My friend, neurologist, says that in the UK if you have an aneurysm and are under 60 years old they will stabilize you and admit you to the hospital and care for you for a week, if after that week you have survived they will send a specialist in to try and repair the damage in your brain, if you are still alive. If you are over 60, they will not treat your aneurysm.Is this what you want in AMerica?I don't.

ervinparker

The other countries are failing? Really? The only evidence I've ever seen to support that hypotenuse are the cons whom like the proverbial bobble heads just mimic some right wing bombastic mouth piece....I know people in Canada, France and else where who are perfectly happy with their health care as opposed to the US where we have millions of uninsured, the highest rate of infant mortality.Hospitals over charge, Doctors are generally over paid...

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